Editing The Pen Addict 283/transcript (section)

== Pen Cases ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' Not really. Because I, this is a topic that comes up pretty frequently, you know, just in general terms, you know, not necessarily on the podcast, but just, you know, online and chat rooms on Twitter, things like that. You know, the product inspiration or knockoff or whatever word you want to put to different types of things and there were enough questions piling up about several different things that I kind of wanted to go into my brain a little bit, which is a scary place, admittedly, Myke. It's a scary place because I have thoughts. They're not always popular thoughts, but I believe in what I believe in and I take a stand on those things and people have, you know, what my thoughts on different products and, you know, did somebody rip somebody off? Is this a knockoff? Is this an inspiration? So, what I'm going to try to do today is give some examples to show that this is an extremely nuanced conversation. Everything is pretty much on an individual basis. There's no, you know, overarching one thing you can apply to all these situations and what brought this up the most was a review that appeared on the Pen Addict. There was a pen case review from a company called Wancher, the Penfolium 13. So, they sent me that to review and I sent it off to Susan because she's got a lot of good fountain pens. She takes great pictures. I thought she would do the best job with that case.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Pictures are wonderful for this one.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' She does such a good job. I didn't even cross my mind when I got this case because I don't own any case like this that Franklin Kristoff has a 13 pen case. Like, I didn't put that, didn't put two and two together. I was like, okay, we'll review this pen case. It looks good.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' As it turns out, we posted that last Friday. Saturday, I got an email from Scott Franklin. He's like, hey, just want to give you some information on the pen case. Susan reviewed. And I feel bad for Susan. Susan got wrapped up in the mess. She didn't do anything. But she felt bad. She was in her job, right? Yeah. She has no reason to feel bad about this review. It was a good review. And I wouldn't change anything. You know, not taking it down or anything. He said, this is the original 13 pen case that we made. And this is, I'm not telling Scott and I's business. He made a post on the comment section of the pen addict. So this is all public information. I'm not telling Scott and I's private conversation without him being aware. But he put it out there that this is the original design they sent to a factory in India. And that factory has ended up pawning it off as one of their designs that they will manufacture for you.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' He said, it's the exact shape. It's the exact stitching. It's the exact fabric. There's all these details in it that we know for a fact it's our case. And he said, we never made this case. You know, they make a different 13 pen case that's much bigger and stronger and more durable than this one. He said, but that's our original case for a fact. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. So, Wancher, from their perspective, do they know that? My guess is they don't. Scott's guess is they don't. My guess is they deal with this factory or this factory approached them to manufacture some goods. The factory just happens to have the pattern and know how to make it and Wancher said, yeah, give me 20. You know, I don't think they commission this design because it's, there is no design to commission. The design existed already, right? Does that make sense? So, I don't think Wancher's at fault.

'''Myke Hurley:''' The factory might just be offering this up as just like a, this is something that we can make for you and they're like, sure. Like, maybe like, we want to change this color, we want to make it this material and then it just goes ahead and gets produced and the factory can, can just, can do it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. Exactly. So, you know, I don't believe they did anything nefarious. I, maybe that's, you know, me with rose colored glasses. I don't have any reason to believe that, you know, they drove this necessarily.

'''Myke Hurley:''' But like, so I would say in this, in this instance, right? So, okay, you mentioned this at the top, like, it's very nuanced and everybody's going to have their own opinions and whether me or you call something a knockoff or not doesn't mean that it is or it isn't but it's the way that we look at it. Like, this is a knockoff but it's unintentional by Wancha but it is being knocked off by the factory.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yes. Which, unfortunately, you know, it doesn't matter where the factory is located in India, China, or the US. These things happen. Like, I've, these things happen in the US. You know, it's not a, because it's an overseas manufacturer but there's less repercussions and actions you can take towards overseas companies that do this. But there's, I've definitely gotten emails of US companies doing things to certain people, you know, that have, you know, trusted them with their designs and all of a sudden someone ends up with the exact same design.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So, you know, I don't know that there's, like, a final thing to say on this. It kind of is what it is. You know, it's, I feel bad for Franklin Kristoff mostly, right, because their original work has gone on to something else but from Franklin Kristoff's perspective, they've moved on and made something better, right? So, they have a better product that they love even more and that, actually, our community loves very much. It's a very popular case which is funny to me why it didn't even cross my mind that it was close to it. I just don't own one. So, that case is interesting. The same day, I start getting tweets and DMs and going, hey, did you see this pen? I'm like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. So, our friends Sean Newton and Jonathan Brooks made a pen that looks exactly like a Nakaya Decapod. so, if you're not familiar with the Decapod, it's a 10-sided Arushi pen and Sean made a 9-sided pen model called the Quapaw and sent it to Jonathan to apply his Arushi to it and the final image I think is what threw people off. it looks like a Decapod. Like, exactly. Like, if you put that picture up and I didn't know who put up that picture, I'd say, oh, that's a really pretty Decapod. So, now people are asking me, is that a knockoff? Did they rip Nakaya off? What is going on here?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' It's a piece of art to me. Right? I don't, this is an inspiration for a pen. That style of a faceted pen,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' the Arushi colors, you know, it looks the same, but this is a single pen. That's a piece of art, not a manufactured attempt to say, here's our version of the Decapod that we're not going to say. You know, we're going to just start making this pen and, you know, this is a straight riff on the Decapod. I think it's two artists getting together made something really cool and it's a singular pen, right? I mean, the only hang-up I would have personally, if I was Sean and Jonathan, is absolutely every time someone sees or holds that pen, they're going to go Nakaya Decapod. So they put themselves in that position. It's unavoidable. Do you want that as an artisan? I don't know. I mean, clearly they considered it. It's the exact same color. It's the same shape. It's the same facet finishing. So what are your thoughts on this? Like, this is, I mean, I don't think this is a knockoff or a ripoff. I think it's an inspiration. I think it's an art piece, you know, if you will. It was handcrafted. I have no problem with them getting inspiration from Nakaya to make a beautiful pen. you know, it's not a mass market. Hey, let's try to do this, be this thing that we're not. So I have no problem with this. What are your thoughts on this?

'''Myke Hurley:''' I think it all depends on the intention. And I don't know what the intention is for this pen. Me neither. If they're like, we will now sell these at scale. I think that's a very different conversation at that point. Because, I mean, you can never really know what people have seen. but that is undeniable what the inspiration is for this pen. It's too close in design. If this is a pen that they made as a commission, or if this is a pen that they just wanted to see if they could make something like this, or if this is a pen that one of them will now keep personally, and maybe sell down the line, I think it's fine to do this one off. I think it's totally fine. But I don't think it would be totally cool if they were like, put your name in, and we'll make this pen for you. I feel like that would be tricky. I think they can make this design, but I think they've at least got to change the colors. Nakaya can't own the market on a faceted pen made out of a Rushi. They can't do that because it's too basic. It's too simple of a design. You know what I mean? It's not... I don't think that they could own this, but they totally own that exact look, right? Like, with the brown and the green and the green popping out of the facets, right? Like, because... And the reason is because you see it and you know who made it, right? Like you said, like, this pen, like, you look at it and you're like, oh, that's an Nakaya. And they'd have to be like, oh, no, but wait, we made that, right? And I think it's totally cool for them to be making these pens, and it is a compliment to them that they, that can, especially for Jonathan, that he has gotten so good, right? Like, in the last time I saw his stuff, it was so good, I just assumed they were Nakayas because that's how good he has gotten. But I think if they want to go down this route, then they will just find their own colors and their own like, finishes to it, you know? I think that's the key. But as you say, this is like a one-off. I don't think it's a problem. I don't think it's a problem. But if they were to be like, oh yeah, now we sell these, we've made a thousand of them, it'd be like, okay guys, I think that maybe you should, just for your own sake, you should think differently because that colorway especially is just too close. It's just too close.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And see, I think that the Decapod style is very Nakaya whereas like a basic, you know, Piccolo cigar shaped design, no one would be saying a word, right? Right? It's like, but like, who determines that, right? Like, these are the nuances of the discussions that we have, right? So, it's very interesting. It's like, I'm glad all this stuff came up because now that allows me to talk about the next topic, which I said I've had 800 questions about. That's probably, you know, I've probably had 80. And that's not co compared to Rickshaw. I have a

'''Myke Hurley:''' very strong opinion about this, actually.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay. Okay. I'm interested to hear that because I don't have a very strong opinion about this.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' To me, these cases are an inspiration.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yep.